Belt, Gearbox or Direct

Cody

New Member
<FONT COLOR="e87400">
Hey

I've seen many post boasting that belt drives are the best. I use Gearbox units and have had great luck with em. My orginal machine is still in service. It's 11 or so years old with countless hours on it. It has the orginal gearbox and UDOR pump (the pump has been rebuilt once or twice though).

So why is Belt Drive percieved as superior?
If it's better WHY?????

Thanks
Cody</FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="orange">This Business is Great
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
 

Dave Olson

New Member
Hi Cody,

Our larger pumps are all belt drive. Our main unit (Wheatley) is over thirty years old. Our current fluid end has been on since '87. Put new valves in it about 5 years ago. We still have the orginal power end last overhauled in '87. This pump is currently running at 485 rpm.

Our other pumps are a 5800 series Hotsy (8 gpm 1800 psi) over 20 years old and a American Aero (10 gpm @ 10,000 psi) about 25 years old.

All of our smaller pumps are direct drive electrics 2 gpm 1-1500 psi.

We never have had a large pump that was not belt drive. Can't say that belt drive is better, it is just that we don't know any different!
smile.gif


Dave Olson


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Tidy Powerwash Service, Inc. P.O. Box 781, Catlin, Illinois 61817 Phone 217-427-5557, Fax 217-427-2632 We are a commercial cleaning contractor serving East-Central Illinois and West Central Indiana since 1984. http://www.tps-inc.com/preswash.htm

[This message has been edited by Dave Olson (edited February 02, 2001).]
 

EDROCK

New Member
I ASK ON HERE WHEN STARTING MY BUSSINESS WHICH IS BEST.......WHAT ANSWERS I GOT WAS ABOUT 50-50. SO I WAS PLANING ON BUYING TWO NEW MACHINES ANYWAY .BOUGHT ONE OF EACH WHEN THE FIRST DIES I;LL LET EVERYONE KNOW..BY THE WAY THEY BOTH HAVE SAME HOURS SO FAR AND NOT A LICK OF PROPLEMS THANKS TO THE HELPFUL ADVICE I GET HERE..WITHOUT THIS BOARD I WOULD HAVE ALREADY HAD TO REPLACE SOMETHING THANKS ALL ...JUST MYTWO CENTS...ED

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H

Hotwaterwizard

Guest
Q: If your pump messes up and throws a connecting rod, what happens to the drive components and motor?

Belt Drive
A: The belts may slip and you will have to replace the pump and maybe the belts.

Gear drive unit.
A: The gearbox can sieze up and sheer of the keyway or the engine will probably throw a rod its self. You may end up replacing the pump gearbox and engine.

Direct drive
A: The pump will probably cause the Keyway to sheer off or cause the engine to throw a rod it's self and with either one the pump and engine will need replaced.

Ouestion
How fast will my pump turn?

Belt Drive
Any where from 600 rpm to 1450 rpm.

Gear drive
1750 rpm 2 to 1 ratio

Direct drive
3400 rpm

The slower the pump turns the less wear on the moving parts.



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Hotwaterwizard@aol.com If You have a problem with your machine, just ask me for help. Check out the Machine Problem Board
 

reedsterstl

New Member
Is there a particular brand that anyone uses they recommend? I am having a terrible time making my final decision on which washer to get. I am leaning towards a belt drive, 3000psimax, around 4 gallons per minute. I am doing residential decks and fences and would appreciate any recommendations from the pro's with more experience.

Reed's Deck and Fence Care

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Jon

New Member
Reed's

That is hard to answer, as many members as there are we all have our own favorites.

I would think the first question you need to ask yourself is how much do you want to spend?

You can buy skids from around $2,700 up, possibly lower. I tend to look at things like this, the less you pay the less you get but that does not always hold true here.

Now go back and reread what the Wizard said about the different kinds of drives.


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Jon Fleischer
Oasis Pressure Cleaning
(909) 792-2247
Fax (909) 792-5633



[This message has been edited by Jon (edited February 02, 2001).]
 

Cody

New Member
<FONT COLOR="e87400">Hey Wiz

Now I'm lost.

I was under impression that a pump had to run at a specific amount of rpm's to attain rated operating performance.

Like a TS 2021 delivers 5.6gpm @ 3000psi while operating at 1850rpms (I think that's the rpm's) At 600rpm's it would be working at less than half it's performance

Is this wrong?????


Thanks
Cody</FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="orange">This Business is Great
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
 
H

Hotwaterwizard

Guest
TS2021 5.6 GPM @ 3500psi @ 1450 RPM
That is General Pumps new Rating on this pump.
To do all of the figuring right you need to know all of the following:
The pump rated RPM
The pump rated PSI
The pump rated GPM
The Engine rated RPM
The engine rated HP
The RPM you want to run your engine at
The Torque of the engine at that speed
The size belts required to pull that pump
What psi you want
what GPM you want
Will your engine handle those?
You need to know a little Algebra
You need to know a little Physics
You need a calculator
You need the specs of the pulleys
you need the specs of the belts
you need several formulas to figure out what to do with all of this information.
Bottom line: It is better to let someone who knows how to figure out all of this do it!


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Hotwaterwizard@aol.com If You have a problem with your machine, just ask me for help. Check out the Machine Problem Board
 

Cody

New Member
<FONT COLOR="e87400">
Originally posted by Hot Water Wizard:


Ouestion
How fast will my pump turn?

Belt Drive
Any where from 600 rpm to 1450 rpm.

Gear drive
1750 rpm 2 to 1 ratio

Direct drive
3400 rpm

The slower the pump turns the less wear on the moving parts.

This above post that you had made is what triggered my question, I understand the math,, np there, You just lost me with this post, I guess it was a typo or is there something I am missing?

Your post makes it look as though a pump on a belt drive can move slower and attain the same results as the same on a direct drive, this seems to defy the laws of physics here

Cody</FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="orange">This Business is Great
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
 

Dave Olson

New Member
Hi Cody,

The Wheatley pump that we have is designed to run no more than 500 rpm. We currently are using 1-1/8" plungers turning at 485 rpm, 20hp 220 3phase motor. It is putting out 9 gpm and we can dial it up (bypass relief valve) to 3000 psi. If you click on this url you should see a picture of it. http://www.tps-inc.com/wheatly2.jpg

Dave Olson

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Tidy Powerwash Service, Inc. P.O. Box 781, Catlin, Illinois 61817 Phone 217-427-5557, Fax 217-427-2632 We are a commercial cleaning contractor serving East-Central Illinois and West Central Indiana since 1984. http://www.tps-inc.com/preswash.htm
 

HI-Pressure

New Member
Hey Cody,

I think I know the answer to your question. If a pump is manufactured for direct drive applications they make the stroke of the pump shorter. They also might use a smaller piston bore also. stroke x bore = displacement. So if you turned a belt drive pump at say 3400rpm you would for simple terms double its rated gpm. Pump would never handle it. Thats the main reason belt drive or gear drive pumps last soooo much longer. They do the same amount of work with less rpm.

To determine min. hp requirements for pump.

GPM x PSI
--------- = HP
1460

5.6gpm x 3000
------------- =11.51 hp
1460

This does not take in account for friction loss or many other losses that must be accounted for.

To determine what rpm to turn a pump to get a desired GPM:

Desired GPM x Rated RPM
---------------------- = RPM
Rated GPM

3gpm x 1450rpm
-------------- = 777 rpm
5.6gpm

To determine what size of pulley needed on a pump for belt drive:

Motor Pulley size x Motor RPM
---------------------------- = Pump Pulley Dia.
Pump RPM

3.5" x 3600rpm
-------------- = 8.690" pulley
1450rpm

Please keep in mind that these formulas are for determinig rough sizes. You should always have someone that is qualified help determine what you need.

Hope this long winded post helps someone!

Daren Marshall
HI-Pressure

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H

Hotwaterwizard

Guest
The figures you gave are correct if you refer to an electric motor. use 1100 instead of 1460 for a less efficient GAS engine.
thinkerg.gif



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Hotwaterwizard@aol.com If You have a problem with your machine, just ask me for help. Check out the Machine Problem Board
 

Cody

New Member
<FONT COLOR="e87400">Excellent answers!!!

Thanks guys, I can see now where the belt drives could be a better machine. I guess I never realized the differences in the pumps.

As far as the forumlas, those are great thanks. Acoording to that then I could possibly run that TS 2021 on a 13hp Motor, but if I'm reading Wiz right that would'nt be prudent.??? Any thoughts their.

Also HI-P,, do you know the formula fo "Effective Cleaning Units"???

Dave,,, You are the man, I have to tell ya I've been at this biz for 10+ years man and that rig of yours humbles me, about the only thing in the back of that truck that I recognize is the damn hose, LOL. That's some beast you built their man, What all is it capable of?

Thanks
Cody</FONT c>



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<FONT COLOR="e87400">
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist
</FONT c>
 

Dave Olson

New Member
Thanks for your kind words Cody. We have spend a lot of time and $ putting this equipment together. It has many capabilities.

We have just completed some upgrades to our equipment (new boiler, main storage tank, rebuilt floor & walls. The following is a list of this units current spec's.

1998 GMC 7500 series derated to 6500 series 25,950 lbs. GVWR. 80,000 psi frame rails, reinforced, 11,000 lbs. front axle, 23,500 lbs. Rear suspension. 427 engine, 5 speed transmission, 2 speed rearend. AM-FM and CB radios with weather alert. Air conditioning, power steering. Dual 50 gallon gasoline tanks, duel 90 gallon (water capacity) propane tanks. Customized 5 man crew cab (put in bucket seats & consoles now it is a 3 man cab) also made it higher and longer than standard with extra lights, fans and windows.

14 foot aluminum box with rear swing doors and modifications to accommodate equipment. 1000 gallon "L" shaped stainless steel cross-baffled water tank. 45 KW Olympian genset with 100 KW upsized alternator. 350-engine water-cooled operates on LP vapor. 200 amp electrical panel with breakers and starter for 20 hp motor and 110 volt outlets. 24-volt switches for all motors. 1,100,000 Btu Hotsy boiler operates on LP vapor. 3 hp 220v single-phase circulation pump (15 gpm @ 100 psi). 1.5 hp 110v pressure washer (2.2 gpm @ 1500 psi). 40-gallon stainless surge tank. 20 hp 220 3 phase pressure washer P-100 Wheatley Duplex pump 485 rpm (9 gpm @ 3000). This unit operates completely backwards of most systems. We bypass the water back through the pressure pump. We have Teflon packing in the Wheatley pump. 3 hose reels we generally carry about 600 feet of 5500 psi 3/8" hose. We use 3/8" 7400 psi ballvalves and ¼ " disconnects for our wands. Wands are ¼" galvanized steel with insulation. 2 each 2,4,6,8,10,12 foot wands. Hose end sprayers; we apply our detergents, acids or caustics under low pressure (100 psi or so). We carry two types of heads that allow us to apply chemical ratios of 1-150 up to 1-3. We use electric (110v) diaphragm or pump-up type sprayers to apply 100% solutions. We carry various tips to control volume on our large pump, orifice sizes from 3 to 15. We also carry various spray angles in those orifice sizes 0 to 65 degrees. We use rotary tips as well. 6 & 4-foot aluminum poles and 24" and 12" brushes.

Some of the things that we really find handy along with the above equipment are: 12-volt lights hooked up to a 15-minute timer. When you have an enclosed unit it can be like a cave on the inside. With these lights we can load get parts etc., without needing a flashlight. Florescent lights that really light up the inside when we have our genset up and running. Temperature and pressure gauges so we always know what the equipment is doing. Folding and stationary tailgate steps to get into the back. Manhead in roof for bulk filling our tank. Line plumbed into system to take on water from a garden hose and fill our tank or go directly to our pumps. Shutoffs on pressure lines going to hose reels so we can localize when necessary. Dump lines so we can empty our main and surge tanks rather than having to pump the water out. Infrared 16,000 Btu LP heaters. We do not need to winterize any of this equipment. Can maintain 60-70 degrees inside our box in subzero temperatures. Removable roof hatches. These allow us to get on the roof and they also let in light and help get rid of some of the heat in the summer.

Here are a couple URL addresses that we have set up at this time:
Front of truck http://www.tps-inc.com/tpsredsm.jpg
Rear showing equipment http://www.tps-inc.com/gmcbk1sm.jpg

We always like to talk trucks and equipment. If you are ever in the area stop in and I will show you around.

Dave Olson


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Tidy Powerwash Service, Inc. P.O. Box 781, Catlin, Illinois 61817 Phone 217-427-5557, Fax 217-427-2632 We are a commercial cleaning contractor serving East-Central Illinois and West Central Indiana since 1984. http://www.tps-inc.com/preswash.htm
 

HI-Pressure

New Member
Hey Wiz,

Thanx for catching the formula for horsepower requirements. Instead of switching the bottom figure we always mulitiply the electric horsepower x 1.35 and end up really close to the same horsepower. This also works well with hydraulic drives also.

CP/Rated Cleaning Power is the measured cleaning efficiency of a pressure washer. The capacity to rid a surface of dirt, paint, or extraneous matter. This is calculated by multiplying the unit's pressure rating (PSI) and the water flow (GPM): CP = PSI x GPM

Hope this is the formula you are looking for. We never use it because most of our clients know what they want.

Hope I could help.

Daren Marshall

HI-Pressure

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Cody

New Member
<FONT COLOR="e87400">Thanks Guys..

Dave,, mind if I call ya sometime?

Cody</FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="e87400">
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist
</FONT c>
 

Dave Olson

New Member
Sure Cody, call anytime. I'm in and out a lot but if I'm not in leave a voice mail message and I will return your call ASAP.

Are you going to Orlando? I might, just waiting to get more info from PWNA HQ.

Dave Olson


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Tidy Powerwash Service, Inc. P.O. Box 781, Catlin, Illinois 61817 Phone 217-427-5557, Fax 217-427-2632 We are a commercial cleaning contractor serving East-Central Illinois and West Central Indiana since 1984. http://www.tps-inc.com/preswash.htm
 

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