Licensing

Warren Smathers

New Member
Has there ever been an effort by PWNA or anyone else for a licensing requirement? If you look (perhaps cynically) at other professions, the way they guarantee quality of product and prevent lowballing is by requiring licensure. This reduces the pool of people "authorized" to perform any given profession. This applies to plumbers, electricians, truck drivers, registered dieticians, etc. etc. In my opinion, this industry is today where plumbing and electrical were at the turn of the century. Anyone who wants to get in can get in, and many folks are learning by trial and error. While this is good in the sense of open access, it leads to damage to customer property, degradation of the industry image, and as mentioned before, lowballing by folks who do not carry requisite insurance, etc. No, this is NOT a call for a union!! I am simply opening up the topic for discussion of a route to a true profession.
 

Jon

New Member
Northmeck,

Not to bust your bubble but although the idea has been passed around before it would not stop the low ballers as per se.

Look at any paper in the classified section, HANDYMAN does all.

Look in the throw away papers and green sheets etc. Pressure washing, plumbing, electrical work etc.

You will always have them around even if we the legit business owners who carry insurance, business licenses etc. are here.

I am not disagreeing with you about licensing, just saying it will not do away with that other class of business.

Ok with that said how would you set up a license, local, state or national?

Who would enforce it?

What about fines?

What standard would it insure the customer just because someone holds a license?

Where would the law be on pricing? Price fixing would surely come into play IF we all agreed to the same price for the same work, I would never agree to that, I charge what I feel is a fair price and I do quality work, my prices are not low and I will not compete against those that quote below profit prices.
 

Warren Smathers

New Member
Jon, first let me thank you for your well reasoned argument and interest in the subject. I am a dyed in the wool free market believer and would never go in for manipulation of the market via price fixing et al.
If you look at other professions, it is apparent that licensing is used to weed out the fly by nighters and to level the playing field among the legitimate operators. The state benefits from fees and the consumers benefit from more educated "certified" contractors. The only ones who lose out are the fly by night operators.
For example, in my state it is a requirement to have a cosmetology license to cut hair. Now, clearly one can cut hair without a great deal of specialized training and the health issues are minimal. Nonetheless, by requiring testing and licensing, the legitimate businesses cut out the marginal operators.
The same is true of building trades. You don't really have to be a licensed electrician to know how to install a ceiling fan, for example. It is not technically difficult, but if you do it on a job site as a subcontractor for a general, you have to have an electrician's license. What I envision is a similar status for our profession.
Each contractor is free to charge whatever he or she can command for any given job. That's the free market in action.
 

Dan S

New Member
It's bad enough we need a license to drive a 4 wheller around . pluse now they want ins. on it.. I just got my lic. plate for my 4 wheller .... wow another expence.......

license license license!!!!!!!!! bad idea......

Heck you need a license for everything .. soon they will want a license for us to wipe our behind..... As a matter of fact ya cant do that . (outside in the woods) if ya get cought you will pay a fine for litering...

If it gets to the point where we need a license to wash a trk. or a house then I will either sell out and find a job...... or work without 'em........ just another way for some body to make some cash............. BAD IDEA............ but non the less your plan was
quite interesting to read. There will always be some body out there working without 'em just like there is always be people driving without license.. and ins........... It just wont work and I would hate to see it in this industry...... just my thought of course
 

Mark

Moderator / Sponsor
Dan,

Sounds like maybe the "Long Arm Of The Law" got you again heh?

Littering in the woods heh?

ROTL!:p
 

Jon

New Member
Northmeck,

I am not against licensing, I have my business license, just not really sure the state should step in and tell me I need this and that and oh yeah now that your a contractor here comes the UNION telling you how to run your business.

Remember that the true lowballer does not even have a business license nor insurance and there are those that will always hire them so what good will the license do us from that point of view?

Certain types of washers here in California do need licenses, water blasters need one for sure.

What I would like to know is how will licensing keep out the sour apples.

I would put up money that many of those licensed plumbers, electricians and others work on the side doing jobs without building permits so what is the point in a license other then to be able to work legal jobs.

Now I will say that many cities are requiring a waste water permit before you can wash trucks in their cities, you have to show them your reclaim equipment, demo how it works then a permit is granted you, also the fleet companies cannot hire you without that permit or they get fined.

Big brother is here now.

No I am not opposed to a certain amount of regulation, just not for total regs.


Dan,

You mean to tell us that you need a different driving license for your 4 wheeler? or is it a different type of vehicle license? Calif. requires a standard vehicle license and drivers lic. only.
 

Warren Smathers

New Member
While it's true that you will never be able to stop all the non-legit operators 100%, you have to recognize that the system does work in other walks of life. You may be able to wire an outbuilding for your brother in law without an electrician's license, but you surely aren't going to get the business of a large tract builder to wire their new homes. I would be very interested in hearing from those of you with experience in the building trades. My previous work experience is in aviation, and it certainly works in that industry. Changing the oil filter on a Cessna is exactly the same as doing it on your car, but you have to have an A&P license to be able to legally do it as a business. Does anyone know how other industries, such as trucking, pest control, etc. got the ball rolling on their certification/licensing movements?
 

Larry L.

PWN TEAM - Moderator Emeritus
You may be able to wire an outbuilding for your brother in law without an electrician's license, but you surely """aren't going to get""" the business of a large tract builder to wire their new homes.

In this trade quality is your license,I have no complaint with the low ballers,they make my quality or license better than theirs,as I get what I want an hour wheather large or small business.....If your needing to go up in price go up,the low baller is making what he wants to make with his quality as you can do the same without a license saying you can.

If you can do quality work don't worry about a license as in the brother-in-law pays poor-e in his needs as in the larger needing a need not a license..............Look at what dat married license did,,cost every little to get but cost you dearly to get re'ed of.
 

Warren Smathers

New Member
Bigboy, the marriage license analogy swayed my opinion....LOL. I thought there was something wrong when they attached the marriage license to that ring through my nose!!
 

Jon

New Member
There is a flaw in the marriage license thing, namely that ring though the nose.

It was suppose to be us guys holding the end of the rope, not the females and their lawyers.

Oh by the way, take at look at it this way, since most females change their last name to the hubbies when married does not that mean she married him, not him marrying her?

Makes me truly wonder what is up when some woman insist on hypernated names.

Call me old fashioned but I just believe in one last name, his.

No I am not a male chauninst pig, just old fashioned in many ways, not all ways but many.

Now Bigboy, who wired that ole outhouse you showed us whilst you was readin da funnies?
 

Andy Wheatley

New Member
I have no problem with governing bodies that enact legislation and/or licensing requirements for the safety of the public.

Other than that I support the idea of "limited government," and after reading about the ring in the nose maybe - "limited marriage."
 
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Aplus

New Member
I cannot support any more licensing requirements. I already pay enough fees and taxes as it is. Quality work is always in demand. The low ballers will always work themselves out of a job. Doing good work, and slowly building up a reputation takes time, keep at it, and you will prevail.

I do not see how paying Uncle Sam, at any government level, more money, will make our industry better. No way. There will always be people who screw things up for us good guys.

I just go about my business, charging the amount that's comfortable for me, and let the others self destruct themselves.

My two cents....
 

Jon

New Member
Tony said it well and I see we are in the same boat there, quality work and time work in our favor.

As my business grows more into the niche I want I raise rates on those accounts I don't want in hopes they will find another PW, or pay my new rate.

You do get what you pay for not only in our line of work but in most others too.

Do not go to MacDonalds expecting a Prime Rib dinner for .99, it just won't happen.

Hey Tony how about speeding the boat up a tad, I see a few low ballers rowing towards us, lets sink em buddy:)
 

Warren Smathers

New Member
So you guys would be okay with doctors operating without licenses, pilots, etc.? I am as politically conservative as they come (I make Jesse Helms look like a bed-wetting liberal) but I believe there is a place for standards.
 

David Saulque

<b>PWN TEAM - Hood Moderator</b><br<b><font color=
You are making a big reach with this argument. Our trade requires less education, OJT, less yearly updates and so on. We as a rule are not in a life or death situation that requires extended regulation. It is interesting to note that lawyers are highly regulated and they are at the bottom of the list for consumer confidence.

We live in a trade of service and local regulation should be the standard. When the government get the airports, harbors and the streets safe then they might have a look at us. The government needs to be less rather than more.

David
 

Dan S

New Member
Northmeck must work for the goverment... watch out guys Dont bend over.!!!!!!!..........LOL>>>>>>>

If you want a license to p/wash send me an annual fee of $500.00 and I will print you out one..... who knows you might get more work.... or better yet you might make your competiors mad and they see you have one and they will want one .... which case send them my way I will print them out one as well................

You are talking about Dr.'s and comparing them to US... any joe off the street can buy a p/wer from lowes and put it to work.... but not everybody can transplant a heart........

EVEN THOSE BONE HEADS from Afganistan had to have a license ...or at least had to learn how to fly.......but give 'em a p/wer and they could of blown up the trade center with pure hot water power............

There is no comparision that I see here.........send me your money....
 

Jon

New Member
David and Warren,

Do not misunderstand me here, I am not against licenses per se, just that when and where does it stop?

Like Dan S. said, you cannot compare Doctors to PWs, or street sweepers or even the store that sells girlie magazines down the block.

Try this out for size, it is against the law for us to wash gas stations and allow the water to run off into the drain, yet if an employee of the station does it it is legal, they say it is not yet the EPA knows all to well it is done every night as part of the closing up.

That to me is double standard and I am against that, if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander (us).

Government sticks their nose into to many holes and it comes out stinking like what it is.

Less is better yet I do agree there should be some standards within our industry. What some say the PWNA is striving for and what it really should be doing but with imput from all PWs, not just a few members. (not attempting to start another string about PWNA, just a remark about the org.)

Painters, plumbers, electrictians all have very strong orgs and are backed by the majority of them too yet they still have their low ballers.

I am sure we all could set some standards and live by them even though we are all over the USA and other parts of the world. Shall we start a post on list standards we feel should be agreed upon AND PRACTICED? (pricing cannot be one as it would be price fixing).
 

Jim Bilyeu

New Member
Well, you guys can say and think what you want but the truth of the matter is that there is licensing in your future.

The states that we operate in the most frequent, OR. Wash. Nv. and Calif. all require a contractor to be licensed with the state. Each state varies a little in their requirements but mostley they are the same. In OR. and Wash. anyone who bids or does contract work is a contractor and is required to be licensed with the state. Right now it is costing me a little over $8000.00 a year to be licensed in 4 states.

Enforcement is done through the State Contractors Board. In Oregon, a state trooper can site you if your not licensed and he catches you working. Three complints in 3 months and the state will pull your license.

No, it hasn't gotten rid of the low ballers or the ones working out of complience. There are allot of things wrong with the laws concerning the contractors board and it would take a long time to debate them.

There is at this time a lot of talk about a National Contractors Licensing Board. I havn't seen any specifications or requirements yet but if I can be licensed through them and not have to be licensed in every state I work, I would be all for it. One license is allot better than having to get 50 of them.

Do I like it? NO, not for the business that I'm in. It's no matter what we want or like any more, it's the law.

Jim Bilyeu
Exterior Woodcare
 

Dan S

New Member
well,, we are tought to obey the law of the land........... But I wont do it here...........I will go pump gas somewhere ..........

If what you say is true>>>>>>>> How come Jon. or David dont have a licence
?? you did say Cal. did'nt ya......
 

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