vapor

[ghouchu]

hi guys

can any of you suggest a way to eliminate vapor/condensation inside double-paned windows? it's a fairly considerable amount. customer says it disappears at night but is visible during the day. i washed his house--very little pressure on the window itself, but a ton of water ran down the face of the window from the top. i was using a gizmo that may be like an xjet (which i've never used). it shoots maybe 25', tops, with about the pressure of a 5 to 6 gpm garden hose without a pressure nozzle. i've used the gizmo a number of times without any previous problems with windows. the window's big, about 5' x5'.

also, is there any way to determine (without wetting it) where the window let the water in? i'd love to be able to show the owner it was from the top of the frame rather than through a place i might have caused. if it looks like i did cause it, or can't show i didn't, is there any quick fix?

thanks

richard

 

[outlaw]

sounds like a faulty window that wasn't sealed right at the factory.
Gav

 

[Mike Hughes]

A bad window for sure........they all do that in time.

Perhaps we should all have a clause in a contract explaining this??

 

[Dan Flynn]

Your right on, the seal is broke. Make sure when giving an estimate you always note any problem windows on the invoice.

 

[outlaw]

Thats why I like doing houses that are still under the builders warranty, nearly every house I do I find a minimum of 2 bad windows for one reason are another, I always make a point of showing them to the customer and usually they love me for it, though I did have one lady that got madder than hell stateing that if I hadn't told her she would never had noticed and that now she would just have to live with it cause she coudnt afford to replace it! go figure...some people's kids. The clause might not be such a bad Idea, how would you go about wording it?
Gav

 

[Mike Hughes]

Well, it would more/less have to be a disclaimer, because this condition is not something you can really see until you actually do the job.

We need to educate them about the problem somehow.

 

[ghouchu]

how does one spot a broken seal before washing? is there any way to get rid of the vapor/condensation? does a busted seal mean replacement is necessary, or can it be repaired in some way?

i assume that some amount of pressure will break a perfectly good seal on a window. i guess there are some windows that were never fully sealed and others that were "sealed" but inadequately--a defectively weak seal. any way to distinguish among those 3 possibilities after the fact?

the guy's lived in the house for 3 years--window was there when he moved in--and never had a problem with that window before. i feel very strongly that the water pressure i used was too low to damage an adequately sealed window--in fact, i've used the same nozzle pressure 4' to 6' closer to many windows and never had a problem--but how do i convince the owner?

one more fact that may be relevent: at the time i was washing in the area of that window there was no indication that any water was getting in--there was no visible water on the back side of the glass. though a fairly large area is "misted" it is so fine a mist that one decent paper towel would handle it if it were accessible.

thanks for your responses and for any advice you might be able to add.

richard

 

[outlaw]

I dont know how you would convince the customer, unfortunatly it may be one of those experiances you have to chalk up to a lesson, I'm certainly going to work some wording to include on my invoice, I already have waivers for cracked windows, using chemicals for hard water stains and storm windows but these are all things you can see and my waivers are seperate from my invoice, bad seals are something you can't always see, unless you get lucky and see the condensation. Talk to the guy and check how old the windows are and what make then maybe get intouch with the company and check on the warranty but more than likley youmight just end up biteing the bullet and buying him some new glass.
Gav

 

[timplummer1]

I have washed thermopaned glass for 20 yrs.I can tell you some people just get off blaiming others for things.Dont buy into the idea SHE didnt know about the moisture!Look very carefully at the bottom ledge inside the window,you will notice some spots of mold that are growing,also look out the window at a 45 degree angle when the sun is out and you will see a pattern effect due to the fact it has condensed and dried mutible times.They always shut up after that and will look for a new victim.You lost the repeat but next time if you get called on it calmly explain that duel panes fog inevidably unless they bought anderson brand.IE shame of you for blaming me because you didnt buy right and cover your ass blaming others.Also throw it argon gas is positivly charged within on high quality windows,and no pressure on exterior could possibly touch the seal since its on the side of the glass!Chalk it up to growing panes,ha!

 

[outlaw]

Tim
I had pretty much the same though after I got off my puter last night, if it is a pre-excisting condition and I agree with you it almost certainly is, there will probably be hard water spots inside the glass and these occur over timeand would almost certainly bust her, watch her eyes when you drop this on her, you'll probably get a small amount of satisfaction.
Gav

 

[Aplus]

I agree that a disclaimer for window seals is certainly important. However, even though you didn't have one, I still would not offer to pay for the window repair. I would just flat out state that the technique I used does not result in window seal leakage, and you will not accept responsibility for it. Sure you likely will lose the repeat, but hey, sometimes that happens, and even if you did pay for the window to be replaced, you probably wouldn't get the repeat anyway.

I've noticed that in general, many people will try to weasle free things when they can. When they are faced by people who refuse to be scammed, and make it known that they are knowledgeable professionals, not amateurs, they will back down, and drop the issue.

I'm glad this topic surfaced, because I am in the middle of redoing my contracts, and can still insert this topic to cover myself.

 

[ghouchu]

i think i've figured out what happened. the owner may well be right about it the window not being a problem in the past, but i'm right about not being responsible for the defective seal. it looks like the water got in at the top of the pane where the window is protected from rain by roughly 2" of frame and the gutter above that. until i washed it from below, it probably had never been hit with water at the break in the seal. also, i had to use tons of water on the 2d story eves(i've never seen such tenacious mildew). the 1st story gutters above the window had a blocked downspout, so water was flowing over the edges--adhesion may well have carried some of that water around the frame and straight to the gap in the seal.

so, it shouldn't cause future problems; the question is whether the moisture already inside will go away. if it will, i'm sure he'll be satisfied. ya'lls moral support was key and much appreciated. without it, i'd likely have buckled and accepted responsibility. hell, i might even get the guy's future business now that i've found an explanation that fits my position and his.

thanks!

richard

 

[outlaw]

Glad it worked out for you.
gav

 

[Aplus]

Provided that no more water hits the area of the damaged seal, the moisture will eventually go away. BUT...there will likely be a foggy look to the glass, and maybe even some water spotting between the panes.

Come summertime when the humidity kicks up, and the customer cranks his ac on, the fog will likely return. Remember, there is no longer a thermal barrier between inside air and outside air.

The sash really needs to be replaced, because there either has to be a vacuum, or an inert gas separating the panes of glass.

 

[outlaw]

come summer if theres a vacum and it's hot outside and cold inside cause of the ac, some poor window cleaner will be the victim of an inplosion.
Gav

 

[BryanNewberry]

window seals

Hi Guys. This post is a little late, but wanted to throw my 2-3 cents in. I spent the better part of 3 years making windows in a factory and learned alot about glass. It was not uncommon for the sheets of single glass to have been handled 15 times before they were finally sealed into one unit of insulated glass. Lots of opportunity for scratches, fingerprints and smudges, let your customers know this. Also, something to know is that some of the super effecient glass built now days will actually condense the vapor that is in between the seals when you wash it without the seal being broke. In effect, the glass is compensating for the difference in outside vs. inside temperature, and the glass is so effecient that the little moisture that is trapped in the unit condenses, nothing you can do about it... By the way, we had an industry average of about 20% waste on our finished glass before the units were shipped, so you know that alot of crap made it through to the job site.