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Scott Stone
New Member
I am glad you know your bible. I was not trying to offend you. I was just telling you how I choose to live my life. And as you I do not believe that we can get to heaven without doing something. You think that someone needs to say a prayer, I believe that we need to keep the commandments and repent when we do wrong.
Incidentally, i did not se anywhere in the bible where your prayer was quoted, or anywhere where it says that all you need to do is pray to be saved. Can you give me a clear reference?
Incidentally, i did not se anywhere in the bible where your prayer was quoted, or anywhere where it says that all you need to do is pray to be saved. Can you give me a clear reference?
X
XFRODOBAGGINS
Guest
First of all, I didn't say that you had to say a prayer to be saved, however, you certainly can be saved by saying a sincere prayer to the Lord and asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart. Salvation is by faith alone, without works. The good works follow salvation.
If you could do good works to get to heaven, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross for your sins. Look at this verse:
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(KJV)
If you could do good works to get to heaven, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross for your sins. Look at this verse:
Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(KJV)
M. Williamson
New Member
XFRODOBAGGINS said:
Actually, salvation is by grace, through faith. There's much more to it than saying a prayer. That's certainly part of the initial turning to God, but that's definitely all one must do to make it to heaven. Salvation isn't a one time event, it is a process that begins with a realization of need, and ends with either death or rapture.
You can't say a prayer (even if you mean it with all your heart) and then live like a dirtbag and bring reproach on the name of Jesus with your lifestyle and actions, and expect to make it. Sorry.
Scott Stone
New Member
Well stated Mike. We are saved through the grace of God and because of the atonement of His son. That is where the grace comes in. We do need to follow Gods commandments (note, they are not suggestions) And if we fall short, which we all do at one time or another, WE are allowed to pray for forgiveness. If salvation came through grace alone, there would never be a need for repentance, or obedience.
X
XFRODOBAGGINS
Guest
M. Williamson said:
You are flat out wrong. It is a one time turning to Christ. You come to Christ the way you are and then He changes you from the inside out, it's not something that you can do on your own, it's not a process, it's a one time event that's why it's called being born again. You are trying to add works to salvation, I have shown you scripturally how you are wrong, yet you will not believe the scriptures. You want to get there your own way, not God's. Back up what you say with scriptures.
When you accept Jesus Christ into your heart, at that very moment God literally raises your dead spirit from the dead. He also seals you with His Holy
Spirit and you become His possession. You will natually desire to do the right things. Not because of what you did, but because of what He did.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(KJV)
PressurePros
New Member
XFRODOBAGGINS said:
You lost me right there. Religion is open to interpretation. Of course religious zealots will disagree and insist that THEIR interpretation is the right one and all else be damned. Hell must be filled with Muslims and Buddhists.
I am a God loving person. More important than my beliefs on salvation or my selfish views on how I can get to heaven is how I treat my fellow man day in and day out. Respect, honesty and humility will get you everywhere you need to go in life. My guess is that living right sets a pretty good path for the afterlife as well..
Scott Stone
New Member
It is obvious to me that you are choosing to pick and choose which bible verses you are going to believe. I think I am done with this. Sorry your ox got gored...
I guess I'll have to post on this matter. Let me see where to start. Both of you all are correct in a sense. I think it's a misunderstanding for the most part. XFROD stated that you must be born again to go to Heaven, that is correct. Scott and Pressure talked about good works, that is also good. As XFROD pointed out good works by themselves won't get you to Heaven, you have to be perfect, since no one is you have to come to Christ. Being born again is a one time thing, you are changed your spirit has been made alive by God's Spirit your sins are washed away. XFROD stated a prayer in earlier posts, it really is that easy to be born again. But as Scott and Pressure Pro stated and this is what I think you are talking about. This is the age old debate of once saved always saved coming up, versus losing your salvation by losing faith in Jesus. A subject I had rather not get into, cause it's something most people can't agree on, and there's Scripture to back up both views. I personally do believe one can lose there salvation, although I think it is hard to do that. I can go on and on about it showing different things for people to think about. It all comes down to a choice, God gives us a freewill, we freely choose to serve Him. Theres so much to say I can't and dont' want to type that much. Bottom line is you do have to be born again to enter Heaven, and it all starts there, the works are a shadow of being born again. If you're born again you automatically wanna keep the ten commandments, there not some law like they used to be. The commandments are summed up in Christ's commandments when he was on Earth, you obey the one's Christ taught, the 10 will fall into place.
YVPW said:
Ok, this is interesting stuff but I am a Buddhist and we don't have this "born again" requirement. Is there only a Christian heaven or hell? Do Christians recognize Nirvana? How about all of the people before Christ that believed in gods and goddesses and their own afterlife? Are they recognized by Christians? Just curious.
PressurePros
New Member
Larry L. said:
If anyone were perfect he would be at the right hand of God, not here on earth.
Comments aside, those are still what one should strive for.
X
XFRODOBAGGINS
Guest
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(KJV)
Think about this verse very carefully. It says that ye may know. What does it mean to know something? When you know something to be true, you don't have any doubts or worries about it right? It says that ye may know that ye have eternal life. Not had or will have, but have in the present sense. If you believe on the name of the Son of God, you can know for sure that you have eternal life. If this verse isn't true than God is a liar. God is not a liar.
Who has the Holy Spirit?
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Those that have the Spirit are the Sons of God.
How do you get the Holy Spirit?
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If you are a son of God, or a believer, you have the Holy Spirit of God.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
What does it mean to be sealed? It means to be locked in or closed. You cannot be unsealed once you are sealed.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(KJV)
This verse says don't upset the Holy Spirit, (implication through sinning) but that you are sealed by it unto the day of redemption.
You can't lose your salvation.
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Do you know what an earnest is? It is a down payment. The Holy Spirit in our hearts is a down payment of the blessings that we will receive later. God fully intends to keep us.
I used to struggle with the issue of eternal security until the Lord taught me that He would as Hebrews 13:5 says "never leave thee, nor forsake thee"
If we can lose our salvation, that would mean that God has left us and forsaken us. God is not a liar.
There are many other passages. Are there verses that seem to indicate that you can lose it? Yes, if you don't study the context, you may be troubled by some verses.
What about this verse:
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. {believed: or, trusted
(KJV)
(KJV)
Think about this verse very carefully. It says that ye may know. What does it mean to know something? When you know something to be true, you don't have any doubts or worries about it right? It says that ye may know that ye have eternal life. Not had or will have, but have in the present sense. If you believe on the name of the Son of God, you can know for sure that you have eternal life. If this verse isn't true than God is a liar. God is not a liar.
Who has the Holy Spirit?
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Those that have the Spirit are the Sons of God.
How do you get the Holy Spirit?
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
If you are a son of God, or a believer, you have the Holy Spirit of God.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
What does it mean to be sealed? It means to be locked in or closed. You cannot be unsealed once you are sealed.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(KJV)
This verse says don't upset the Holy Spirit, (implication through sinning) but that you are sealed by it unto the day of redemption.
You can't lose your salvation.
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Do you know what an earnest is? It is a down payment. The Holy Spirit in our hearts is a down payment of the blessings that we will receive later. God fully intends to keep us.
I used to struggle with the issue of eternal security until the Lord taught me that He would as Hebrews 13:5 says "never leave thee, nor forsake thee"
If we can lose our salvation, that would mean that God has left us and forsaken us. God is not a liar.
There are many other passages. Are there verses that seem to indicate that you can lose it? Yes, if you don't study the context, you may be troubled by some verses.
What about this verse:
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. {believed: or, trusted
(KJV)
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M. Williamson
New Member
XFRODOBAGGINS said:
We can throw verses at eachother all day if you like...
(Mat 24:10-14 KJV) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. {11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. {12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. {13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. {14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(Mark 13:12-13 KJV) Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. {13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Oh, and here's a REALLY good one...showing that it IS possible for God to blot out someone's name from the book of life...
(Rev 3:5 KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
See, what you're saying is that once we are "saved" we lose our free will. We couldn't walk away from God if we wanted to. We become slaves.
Can you show me ONE verse that tells us to "Accept Jesus"? I'm more concerned about Jesus accepting ME.
(1 John 1:8-10 KJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. {9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. {10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Here in John, it appears that our sins are forgiven only if we confess. Do you really think God is taking people to heaven who have the stain of unrighteousness on them?
Here's another one you could use...it teaches us that God's word isn't to be taken in part (here a little, there a little) but rather as a whole. You can't pick out a couple verses, out of context, and say "See! Salvation by faith alone".
(Isa 28:9-10 KJV) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. {10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
You say there are no works required for salvation. Isn't repentance a work? Isn't saying a prayer a work? Isn't "accepting Jesus" a work? Isn't turning to God a "work"?? I guess those are the works you're comfortable, so they're ok.
You ARE correct in that is is not something we can do on our own. Without God's grace, it wouldn't matter what we did...it wouldn't matter. I could live a completely pure Godly life, doing nothing wrong, and still be lost...because I was BORN a sinner. So yes, we can't do it ourselves. God had to make a way. It is up to us to follow that way. It is up to us to endure to the end.
X
XFRODOBAGGINS
Guest
Repentence is not a work, it comes from God. Accepting what Jesus did for you is NOT a work. You are randomly quoting bible verses that have nothing to do with anything and trying to say that they indicate that God won't save His children. Show me where the bible takes someone's salvation away from them. It doesn't. You basically said that no matter how much scripture I post you won't believe. So I guess you don't believe the bible.
You used these verses:
Good verse which also proves eternal security,
(Rev 3:5 KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
If you have Jesus Christ in your heart, you are an overcommer. You already have the victory because of what Jesus Christ did for you.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.(KJV)
He wants us to have peace about our salvation. Men like you seek to steal that away. I am an overcommer because Jesus Christ overcame the world and my faith is in Him.
You say you are more concerned about Jesus accepting you? Don't you believe Him when He says:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.(KJV)
What about this one:
2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.(KJV)
Some of those other verses don't have anything to do with this discussion, so I'm not quite sure why you posted them. Get in the word and pray and ask God to give you understanding. You need the Holy Spirit to discern the bible for you. Have you accepted what He did for you on the cross? If you haven't done that, then that's why you don't understand the bible. If you have, then you need to study more and pray about it. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I have been studying the bible that long as well.
Please don't disregard the bible verses that I show you, just because they don't line up with what you want the bible to say.
You used these verses:
Good verse which also proves eternal security,
(Rev 3:5 KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
If you have Jesus Christ in your heart, you are an overcommer. You already have the victory because of what Jesus Christ did for you.
Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.(KJV)
He wants us to have peace about our salvation. Men like you seek to steal that away. I am an overcommer because Jesus Christ overcame the world and my faith is in Him.
You say you are more concerned about Jesus accepting you? Don't you believe Him when He says:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.(KJV)
What about this one:
2Pe 3:9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.(KJV)
Some of those other verses don't have anything to do with this discussion, so I'm not quite sure why you posted them. Get in the word and pray and ask God to give you understanding. You need the Holy Spirit to discern the bible for you. Have you accepted what He did for you on the cross? If you haven't done that, then that's why you don't understand the bible. If you have, then you need to study more and pray about it. I have been a Christian for over 30 years. I have been studying the bible that long as well.
Please don't disregard the bible verses that I show you, just because they don't line up with what you want the bible to say.
Salvation is NOT a work. It is the gift of God. To recieve it, all we must do is reach out and accept it.
For those who believe it is possible to lose salvation: When in the history of God's creation has God EVER lost ANYTHING to Satan? Never. When will he start? Who's soul will God be willing to lose for Satan? Yours? Mine? The answer is Noone's.
If we were able to gain our salvation by works, who would get the credit and the glory? Not God. It would be of our own doing, and God would not be glorified for that. He gave his son as atonement for our sins. Our sins are paid for with the blood of Jesus. All we have to do is recognize that, and accept the gift.
Eph 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourseves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."
What a cool discussion!
Randy
For those who believe it is possible to lose salvation: When in the history of God's creation has God EVER lost ANYTHING to Satan? Never. When will he start? Who's soul will God be willing to lose for Satan? Yours? Mine? The answer is Noone's.
If we were able to gain our salvation by works, who would get the credit and the glory? Not God. It would be of our own doing, and God would not be glorified for that. He gave his son as atonement for our sins. Our sins are paid for with the blood of Jesus. All we have to do is recognize that, and accept the gift.
Eph 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourseves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."
What a cool discussion!
Randy
Scott Stone
New Member
So where does repentance fit in the mix? If it is purely through grace that we receive salvation, then why is there a need for repentance?
Repentance simply means that you ask to be forgiven of your sins and you promise God that from that moment on you will TRY not to do those things anymore.
He understands we are not perfect. We were born with a sin nature.
Only after we enter into Heaven will we be as Christ. Until then we are corrupted by our very nature, and not worthy for God's gift. But He offers it anyway. Because He love's us. If a fellow human being did something especially nice for you just because they love you, you'd love 'em back right? Why not love God back?
Even if you have salvation, you will still be judged according to your works. The saved will appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ and account for everything they've done since becoming saved. You will explain to Him why you did this, and why you didn't do that.
The unsaved will appear before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgement, in which they will hear those horrifying words, "Depart from me. I never knew you, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7: 23
Actually, check out verse 22 as well. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in my name have done many wonderful works?"
What's that tell you about salvation by works?
Luke 13:3
Repentance is necessary for salvation, but repentance alone does not save. It means to change one's mind about sin in such a way as to result in a change of action.
Not to say that we'll be perfect after that. Remember, we still have these sinful bodies and a sin nature. That's why we need DAILY repentance, because we screw up every day.
Randy
He understands we are not perfect. We were born with a sin nature.
Only after we enter into Heaven will we be as Christ. Until then we are corrupted by our very nature, and not worthy for God's gift. But He offers it anyway. Because He love's us. If a fellow human being did something especially nice for you just because they love you, you'd love 'em back right? Why not love God back?
Even if you have salvation, you will still be judged according to your works. The saved will appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ and account for everything they've done since becoming saved. You will explain to Him why you did this, and why you didn't do that.
The unsaved will appear before Christ at the Great White Throne Judgement, in which they will hear those horrifying words, "Depart from me. I never knew you, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7: 23
Actually, check out verse 22 as well. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in my name have done many wonderful works?"
What's that tell you about salvation by works?
Luke 13:3
Repentance is necessary for salvation, but repentance alone does not save. It means to change one's mind about sin in such a way as to result in a change of action.
Not to say that we'll be perfect after that. Remember, we still have these sinful bodies and a sin nature. That's why we need DAILY repentance, because we screw up every day.
Randy
Daniel Stapes
New Member
Randy, You have come as close to the way that I believe as any of the post's.
It is pride (sin) that demands our way. And we have seen that here. We(Christians) are all on the way.
It is pride (sin) that demands our way. And we have seen that here. We(Christians) are all on the way.
Scott Stone
New Member
From your explanation, it seems that Repentance is totally unnecessary, as long as you accept Jesus.
I totally agree with repentance being necessary, it is just that obedience to God's commandments is necessary, as well. Notice that they are not suggestions. If you don't follow the commandments, then you have the opportunity to repent. You will be forgiven after repentance, but part of it is recognizing that you have done something that is not in line with God's commandments.
What is confusing me about this whole thread, and is really schizoprenic, in my opinion, is that people are saying you are forgiven through the pure grace of God, and if you are able to, try to live the commandments as close as you can...
Now, personally, I do believe that we are saved through the grace of God, but I also believe that he is like a loving parent.
Let me illustrate through an example that is simplistic, but in close correlation to how I believe.
I have a 17 year old son. Liek all 17 year old boys, he is all about driving. Because I love him, and want him to be able to do good things, I allow him to drive. As long as he is obedient, there is never a problem. He can do what he wants as long as it falls in the guidelines that I have given him. However, if is irresponsible, and is does not follow our familiy expectations for behavior, the grace that he receives of driving and having access to a vehicle can be taken away. Until he is able to realize he made a mistake, apologize, and make a sincere effort to remediate what ever it was that caused the problem, he doesn't have driving privileges. As soon as he goes under a proper period of contrition, then he gets his driving privilege back. Believe me, I want him to be able to drive. It is easier for me if I can be certain that he is going to follow the guidelines and parameters that I set out for him. But, if he is not obedient to the rules that I have set out, as much as it pains me, I cannot permit him to drive.
God has given us commandments as well. These are given because he loves us and wants us to succeed. However, sometimes people fall back. Just like my 17 year old son cannot be given my grace when he is disobedient, God cannot give His grace to us, when we are disobedient. First off, it would not be a just treatment to all of those that actually make the effort to act in accordance with His commandments, and He is a just and fair God. Second, If there is a blessing given when it is not earned, it is seldom appreciated. We always are able to have His grace in our lives, and it is a gift to us, but in order to fully benefit from the atonement of Jesus Christ, we need to be obedient to the commandments of God.
I totally agree with repentance being necessary, it is just that obedience to God's commandments is necessary, as well. Notice that they are not suggestions. If you don't follow the commandments, then you have the opportunity to repent. You will be forgiven after repentance, but part of it is recognizing that you have done something that is not in line with God's commandments.
What is confusing me about this whole thread, and is really schizoprenic, in my opinion, is that people are saying you are forgiven through the pure grace of God, and if you are able to, try to live the commandments as close as you can...
Now, personally, I do believe that we are saved through the grace of God, but I also believe that he is like a loving parent.
Let me illustrate through an example that is simplistic, but in close correlation to how I believe.
I have a 17 year old son. Liek all 17 year old boys, he is all about driving. Because I love him, and want him to be able to do good things, I allow him to drive. As long as he is obedient, there is never a problem. He can do what he wants as long as it falls in the guidelines that I have given him. However, if is irresponsible, and is does not follow our familiy expectations for behavior, the grace that he receives of driving and having access to a vehicle can be taken away. Until he is able to realize he made a mistake, apologize, and make a sincere effort to remediate what ever it was that caused the problem, he doesn't have driving privileges. As soon as he goes under a proper period of contrition, then he gets his driving privilege back. Believe me, I want him to be able to drive. It is easier for me if I can be certain that he is going to follow the guidelines and parameters that I set out for him. But, if he is not obedient to the rules that I have set out, as much as it pains me, I cannot permit him to drive.
God has given us commandments as well. These are given because he loves us and wants us to succeed. However, sometimes people fall back. Just like my 17 year old son cannot be given my grace when he is disobedient, God cannot give His grace to us, when we are disobedient. First off, it would not be a just treatment to all of those that actually make the effort to act in accordance with His commandments, and He is a just and fair God. Second, If there is a blessing given when it is not earned, it is seldom appreciated. We always are able to have His grace in our lives, and it is a gift to us, but in order to fully benefit from the atonement of Jesus Christ, we need to be obedient to the commandments of God.