If someone started a new organization?

Ron Musgraves

Administrator
Staff member
#1
If someone started a new organization,

What would everyone want from that new organization?


Any Ideas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash

[This message has been edited by Ron Marshal (edited January 16, 2001).]
 

Larry L.

PWN TEAM - Moderator Emeritus
#2
<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT COLOR="Fuchsia">If I tell ya,will you cut me in? its where you need to start to do what ya'll was talking about here while back.It will start opening the doors for what you where planning on doing,its one of the starting points you will need.I want a place in that spot,it will save you money and you will make money,you can grow from here at one step at a time.</FONT c></FONT f>

<FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT COLOR="Red">Have we got a deal?</FONT c></FONT f>

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When answering Post If It Sounds As tho I'm Holding A Match To Ya "Fear Not" Its Only Lit On One End.I'm No Doctor The Pill I Subscride Is For Me Only.They May Make You Jump Up and Down Or Crawl All Over The Ground.Will Try To Help Sail Your Ship Even Tho Rocket Fuel Is The Tip.
When In Doubt,,,Think It Out.....triplel@bscn.com
 

Cody

New Member
#3
<FONT COLOR="e87400">Well if we can band together to beat back our local competitors with strongarm militia type tactics,,,I'm in!!


We can call it the "Streamsters"</FONT c>

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<FONT COLOR="orange">This Busienss is Great

Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>

[This message has been edited by Cody (edited January 16, 2001).]
 

Jon

New Member
#4
Dang I sold my ak47 rather then go to jail for not registering it!!

Ron I said a couple things in another post but will repeat here.

A deal with a national collection agency to collect bad debts, like that lady attorney who won't pay.

A little black book of national companies that don't pay or take month and month to pay so we know before we do the work. (I will be cleaning off concrete and blacktop on new bank lot soon for national company, would love to know if they pay bills fast or slow.)

A list mailed out to all members with name, address and phone number,fax numbers and E-mail address too! It should not be abused and NEVER GIVEN out to others without their permission.

We should also have a buyers whatever so we can get our supplies dirt cheap, but for that to work we all would need to agree to certain cleaners, OK chemicals and not overload it with several dozen brands. Sure we can continue to buy from other suppliers but say you pay $45 for a drum of xxx brand, now say buy all buying from AB supplier we can pay $25 for the same thing, would you do it, YES you would, a buck saved is a buck earned.

Ok, stepping off this stump now, who will step up and speak up?

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Jon Fleischer
Oasis Pressure Cleaning
(909) 792-2247
Fax (909) 792-5633
 

Ron Musgraves

Administrator
Staff member
#6
How about these to start with.

1. collection attorney
2. group health insurance
3. group marketing campaign
4. Buying power for chemicals and equipment.
5. educational programs
6. Certification classes for different types of pressure washing.
7. Manuals for equipment problems.
8. National account recognition.



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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash
 
#7
Ron,

I, back when my family, their family, and their family, etc was in the ranching business (all the rest of my kinfolk are still ranching), we were in a co-op and they work great. This is what your speaking of, a lot more than a pwna or whatever. The reason i say this is because i know how they work, inside and out.

I too have talked to some suppliers that are capable of handling such a demand in business, and talked to them about whether they would be interested in being a supplier to a new co-op. Some didnt, some have called me weekly to see how it was going. Obviously discounts are greater for more members and more supplies being bought by the co-op.

I have also talked to two insurance companies, and they too showed interest, but were real curious of the number of possible policy holders. These were both health and commercial liability and workmans comp companies. The interest is there, and i think this is possible.

It all boils down to 2 things, the most important is, how many members you can get. The more members, the greater bargaining power you have. But if the members don't come thru, the discounts are gone. A co-op is not a straight discount for anything. In a co-op, you have to estimate what you will purchase during that year. Turn it in to the co-op, and the co-op will take bids for discounts from wholesale suppliers. This can be done on a $$$ basis or per item basis. Obviously $$$ is the better avenue.
2nd is administration. This is no easy task, and it is not inexpensive to do. In my speaking with suppliers, and insurance companies, and putting it all down on paper, i forsee having to raise at least 15 grand, to even start it. Thats not much with the group we have here, 100 bucks if we can get 150 members, 150 bucks if we get 100, you see how it goes. That 15 grand would only get the co-op set up legally. It wouldnt buy any supplies or anything.

I dont think that is impossible, but i don't see 100 companies out here paying 150 bucks. Why? I have tried and tried to get folks here to just send dan a donation to keep the board going, and only one guy would stand up and say, i will. What people dont realize is that 150 bucks to enter the co-op would be saved with the first surface cleaner or whatever they buy. But you watch, they arent gonna do it. I hope i am wrong.

I even went to the trouble of contacting the farmers co-op based out of Tyler Texas, and they have sent me bi-laws and all their administrative jargon that was to lead me into the early stages. You get a 100 companies willing to pay 150 bucks a piece, and i will put it together.

Craig

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Craig Knight
www.powerwashunlimited.com
 

Ron Musgraves

Administrator
Staff member
#8
Craig,

No disrespect, I think I would only use the word co-op as something familiar. I think I would start a dummy supply company and buy direct from manufactures and wholesalers. Your right by-laws of a co-op need to be followed. If you did it this way you could buy one widget and get the second for a discount. Pass the discount on as the organization as it got larger. It would be too difficult to rely on the trust of all members. If members find out they can purchase a t2021 pump directly from us and get it for 222.00 they will join. How about a generator for a skid unit 3500watts 210.00 once you establish buying power with company’s like general, spraymart, chappell, and a ton of other wholesalers. You are on easy street. We are all end users and alone we cannot purchase from these companies.


Insurance and other companies will jump at the chance to write policies for our members. The key is they need to be reasonable at first. When you have x amount of members that when you negotiate prices that cannot be gotten elsewhere.


Craig get positive, I too have checked into things and I think we can all save thousands if we unite and stand together. Everything will not happen all at once. Your business took time to grow everyone understands that.


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Ron Marshal Phoenix AZ
1-888-fleetwash
 
#9
Ron,

Oh i am positive, but i also look at the road blocks ahead. Sure, there are detours to get around each one, and the easiest way to do that is to establish a co-op. We found when buying feed and supplies for ranching the prices were well below what the wholesalers in Texas were paying for it. If you buy from wholesalers, the price can be only so low, when you buy from the manufacturers, the price they give you depends on what and who you are. A co-op would stand more boldly than a newly established wholesale buyer. So in return, your prices will be better, than if you are a company buying these products.

My main reason though, for suggesting a co-op is because there is no one there to suck up the profits, such as a PWNA (not that they do a bad job). Where does the money go. In a co-op, the management is volunteers, unpaid, no curruption, no bonuses, no quotas, etc. But if you have a newly established company that begins furnishing all the products to the group of companies, it will eventually become currupt. Its inevitable. Plus, a newly established company is going to have a hard time getting insurance, etc. There are already guidelines set up for co-ops, and initial rates set.

This could go on forever, i just wanted to voice my opinion, but ya'll do as you please. I do agree that something drastically needs to be done, but i do not agree that someone establishing a company to provide the cuts to the group is definately not the way to go. But if ya'll decide to do it that way, i will be glad to be the one to put the seed money in and run the new business, because any such would be definitely a profitable business, where in a co-op, no one makes any salaries, and what would have been the salaries to the management would be sent to where it belongs, to the co-op members, in the form of price savings.

Craig

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Craig Knight
www.powerwashunlimited.com
 

Larry L.

PWN TEAM - Moderator Emeritus
#10
<FONT COLOR="Blue">Graig

Thats what I was thinking of,I to have been with co-op's.It could handle all the chemicals and parts plus eqt. in our trade.We could pay about the same for those and put the money back for the next stage.All members would have to pay the same,some would have to pay more for shipping as of now.At the end of the year all members could be paid a percentage.ect.ect.ect.

Like you said it takes members that are willing to tough it out because of growing pains.If you get the 100 this year and only 50 the next,you would have to do some leg work to keep it going,but it will work.It could make alot of the chemicals in our trade,ect.ect.It took the farmers co-op a few times to get started but look at them now.The 15 grand is just a drop of rain on the lake but at least its a drop.

Your going to run into problems like me and another p/w that can already buy from some companys like sp----==t, t--f and Har--se.We (those) would be the ones that will hold back alittle because it took awhile to get it,don't want to cut their on adams apple as what they have now.

I'm satisfied with my buying power now but would go with the co-op (IF) I seen it was going to make a goal.</FONT c>


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When answering Post If It Sounds As tho I'm Holding A Match To Ya "Fear Not" Its Only Lit On One End.I'm No Doctor The Pill I Subscride Is For Me Only.They May Make You Jump Up and Down Or Crawl All Over The Ground.Will Try To Help Sail Your Ship Even Tho Rocket Fuel Is The Tip.
When In Doubt,,,Think It Out.....triplel@bscn.com
 
#11
Hey guys,

Sounds like a interesting idea. I wonder how many companys are in the situation we are in. We buy our insurance locally. All but one chemical locally, 85% of all supplies locally. By locally I mean 10 minutes from the house! We are 70 miles from Landa's home plant and a sales rep we know by name. Supplies like chemicals are considerably cheaper when you subtract the cost of shipping. Call me a little old fashoned if you like but I still believe in buying local when possible and there is something to be said for being loyal to your local suppliers. I for one will pay more for service. I have a very good business relationship with these companies and have no intentions of severing them. Save me money? I don't think so. I realise this is only one side of the coin. Saving money on supplies, insurance ect.... networking to make money is another critter all together.......Rob

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#12
<FONT COLOR="e87400">Sounds like you guys need to pursue a position on the board of PWNA and try to position them into recieving discounts from suppliers.

I used to be a member of PWNA i no longer am, I really saw NO benefits from my $250 annual investment. It's sad their meeting is really not that far from me this year and I am relly considering NOT going. To go will run about $400, I don't see it being worth it. The only part of it I like is getting to meet a few of my vendors, is that worth $400. I think not. If anyone from here goes i will probaly shoot over to say hey though.

Anyway I too have pondered the notion of an network simular to what you're discussing here, and well it would be very difficult. To be effective someone needs to get paid otherwise it's really too much of a burden on those running it. There lies a major problem. Like Craig said "Corruption follows", sad but probaly true.
</FONT c>


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<FONT COLOR="orange">This Busienss is Great

Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
 
#13
I have talked to both Craig and Ron about this and the ideas are great. I think just from a small conversation with each, we have come up with a pretty good list of ideas. We need to put them down on paper. Then post it here.

People need to realize the benefits in numbers. In the beginning the benefits will be smaller than in the future. But it will be an investment for the future. The money you put it will be a fraction on the return. Continual learning is one thing. The discounts on things we all use, is another. Including job contacts, insurance, and the lists in the other post. Then off course what ever comes up down the road.

I think the PWNA has a good idea with the organization and this will be nothing like that. They offer a pretty expensive way to get together with out a lot of true benefits other than training and communication with peers. Which is good and I guess priceless to an extent, and hopefully will continue to grow. They have things to offer and so will we. This would be much different. More like the chamber, then grow into training and much better benefits like group marketing and referring national contract work..

It would not be a competition with the PWNA, just an added feature to our industry. Offer members a way to get together and benefit from numbers in many ways. At a price that does not matter. Because of the return. As we grow the cost will grow, but so will the benefits. Benefits should always out way the price. The more we put in the more we will gain. Meaning members and funds. If we invest our knowledge, strength in numbers and money. We will all do very well. Creating a brotherhood that will only limit itself by its growth.

For starters we meet here everyday already for free and build relationship and learn from each other. We can leave the board as is and have another board just for Co-Op/what ever we call it. That board will be there to discuss and ask question about the ORG. only. We can set voice chat times to discuss things in person. Sometimes the general chats get boring because there really isn’t a topic that we stay with. That should get the ball rolling.

I will post a new poll on the main forum to see what the interest will be like. Maybe we can set up a goal to get a list of so many members before we begin.

The only way to make this happen is to do it. Action is power. We can start it off slow to get it somewhat organized and set some basic rules. No funds will be due until we reach a certain mark of members. You get the point. I will update you guys with what I come up with as it comes.

Keep the ideas coming.


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Dan Flynn
Timberland Power Wash
www.powerwash.net
Houston, Texas.
 
J

Jim&Shirley

Guest
#14
We would be intrested in joining,being part of a group or team with buying power,We would all save, like the others here have said, health, Auto,Personal Insurence,Chemicals,Supplys,Ect the list goes on,150.00 its a good starting point and you could actually see what your getting for your money and the saving,and I liked the Idea of the saving coming back to the Members at the end of the year, We have Heard it all our lives Buying Power this is where its at, We bought our first 2000 ford F-350 over the Inter-net through carsmart.com from local dealerS THEY COMPETE WITH WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR AND THEY DONT MAKE A DIME ON COMMISION THATS HOW THERE ABLE TO DO THIS ANYBODY CAN TRY THIS AND IT COST NOTHING!!!! sales person at both location told us Employes cant get them for what we got our, we only paid $23,900 and when we totalled that one out, we done it again same year and model for $21,900 and this one came from a different Dealer and we Required them to throw in the flat bed, NOW THIS IS BUYING POWER,these are truck that sell for 28-30,000 otherwise we couldnt afford one.


JIM & SHIRLEY

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#15
I hate to do this! BUT I gotta play Devil's Advocate here!

FIRST OFF: Where are the members going to come from that are paying for ALL OF THIS STUFF?

LET'S REALLY LOOK AT THIS STUFF ...


  • COLLECTION ATTORNEY - $99.00 an Hour?
  • GROUP HEALTH INSURANCE - I pay under $200.00 a month for Blue Cross Preffered & I am diabetic!
  • GROUP MARKETING - Do a search on PRESSURE WASHING NC - bet I can teach some of you how to get your web site listed as high as an ARAN web site!
  • How much of the BUYING POWER is going to be lost on shipping? & who is going to receive it? ...and on what budget? The attorneys?
  • EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS? How many of you are REALLY willing to go to another part of the country to try & learn something?
  • Aren't 5 & 6 basically the same?
  • Equipment manuals? I know a Mexican guy barely speaks english & does a good job rebuilding machines!
  • #8 - no comment except "HUH?" Do what? Whats this?
    [/list=a]

    You have 8 or 9 people here talking about this - IF EVERYONE HERE JOINED - How Long Can We As A Group Afford An Attorney? If we ALL pay $500.00 a year we could afford one for (hopefully) 45 hours.
    Why would I think this would benefit me?
    I have NEVER lost enough to worry about an attorney.

    ... just a REALITY CHECK!

    Originally posted by Ron Marshal:
    How about these to start with.

    1. collection attorney
    2. group health insurance
    3. group marketing campaign
    4. Buying power for chemicals and equipment.
    5. educational programs
    6. Certification classes for different types of pressure washing.
    7. Manuals for equipment problems.
    8. National account recognition.




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    Cleaning America - One Job At A Time!
 
#16
Aran,

If its not for you its not for you. Obviously your not aware of the benefits Ron is speaking of. Your looking at this from one side, and worried that a possible 100 to 200 bucks would get you nothing in return. Ever thrown down a hundred at the crap table? Ever tried a new chemical? Ever bought a piece of equipment that you have never used? Ever placed an ad in the paper/yellow pages? Ever tried a new sealer/stain? I have, on all the above. Bet you have on some. Being in business is a crap shoot, but when you have the networking possiblities we have, whats a freaking hundred bucks. Noone has asked you for money. Noone has promised anything. We are just brainstorming an idea that could or could not go anywhere. If this does go, and i dont have a clue whether it will or not, i would love to see the day when we are saving bundles on machines, chemicals, parts, accessories, healthcare, ect. and people that ran it down are now jumping on the bandwagon. Yes, i saw your first post that was removed or deleted, and i wasn't impressed, at all.
Your second post was much more professional and stated your opinion well.

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Craig Knight
www.powerwashunlimited.com
 
#17
Craig -WHAT BENEFITS?

Benefits cost money!

What money?

Where will it come from?

Reality Son! REALITY!!!

...and YES I am worried about $200.00! I can get about 10 late night ad slots on TV for that!

I don't think it is logical to through money into something that isn't fianancially sound!

If you want to do something - help the newbie get work so they too can afford to stay afloat and NOT cut prices to scratch a few dollars up!

That's what I am doing!

I'm not just throwing my money into lip service!

If I want LIP SERVICE I'll run over to Raleigh and get a $2.00 whore - at least no one gets screwed that way!

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Cleaning America - One Job At A Time!

[This message has been edited by AranServices (edited January 16, 2001).]
 
#18
Benefits dont come with the money Aran, they come from buying power. If you had walmart come to you and tell you they needed 200 stores cleaned and wanted your bid, and they were all lined up in a row, would you give them your one time only cleaning price, or would you give them a discount so you could get the work. Heck, 200 stores would set you for a long time. Same thing, if you have 50,100, or 200 companies going to a single supplier, they are going to give you a heck of a discount. It aint the money honey, its the mass volume. What part of that dont you understand. If you can get your insurance for 200 bucks a month, do you not believe they will sell 100 policies for less. Where you been. If you call a collection agency to collect some funds for you, and you have never used them before, or rarely, you will pay what? 25% fee.
But if you have a co-op of 100 or more calling them, you dang right your fee will be less.

The money, SON, is to establish a legal organization. Not to pad the pockets of the management. You have obviously been burned before, and skeered. The money would have to be handled as a non-profit organization, just as co-ops handle theirs. The money would be handled by a financial firm, not by individuals. Them money is only used for startup.

You asked <FONT COLOR="Orange">What money?</FONT c><FONT COLOR="Brown">Where will it come from?</FONT c>

There is no money after startup, you dont need it. You are given access to PURCHASE at reduced rates. The purchases arent made by the co-op, they are made by each member, at predefined rate cuts. Hello? With me? Its using the numbers!!!!




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Craig Knight
www.powerwashunlimited.com
 
J

Jim&Shirley

Guest
#19
Aran,

You are really interested in financially sound investments. I have a couple of investments I think you might not want to consider it is just a couple of little companies that are just ideas of a couple of collage students, actually one was just a term paper. I really don't think you would be interested, right?


Well, you just missed out on 2 of the most profitable companies in America today. What about Micrsoft and Fed ex.

Everyone has to start somewhere. I am not saying that we would ever get to be as large as either one of these, but why not at least try. Let's face it, you are in pressure washing how financially sound is that when you were just starting out?

We all have to take chances and start somewhere.

Just my thoughts

Shirley

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#20
<FONT COLOR="e87400">ARAN you da MAN!!! I knew I liked you for some reason.

OK, I'm going to try to express my views here on this subject.

This really goes back to competitors in a round about way.

When I got into this biz equipment was "twice" as expensive My first Flat Surface Cleaner was $1500 bucks. Today you can get it for $750. My first Pressure Cleaner was $1900 and today you can get it for $1000. Frankly I wish these prices were still the same as they were when I started out, hell I wish they had doubled in price. Why?? You ask, it keeps the riff raff out of MY business. A nice little note here, why have the prices come down so much on this equipment? It's because more pressure cleaning supply companies have popped up and created more competition within the industry thus lowering prices as a whole!!!! NOW, Competition is a good thing right????? Ummmmmmmmmmm I don't think so!! Also is it a coincedence that in the last 4 years prices have begun to level off and even slip on pressure cleaning services, against the rise in fuel cost and inflation rates??? I think not.

Folks that kinda know me probably know or think I'm cheap and try to get everything bottom dollar Well that is somewhat true, it's not that I'm cheap though I am just a smart buyer and businessman saving a dollar here increases my bottom line. (I know, inadvertently I am my own problem by my buying "best price" I am supporting the lowballers, but hey there not going away they may go outta biz but others are following suit so …..)The whole goal of being in business for yourself is to make money. Since I have the time I can look for good buys. So I do. However, I DO NOT want to make even lower prices available to my competitors. Here's where part of the problem lies.

If a well-formed org was formed how would it be structured. My interest would only lie in a buying type club that had a "cap" on membership size anything else would unacceptable to me, not to say that I would'nt be a member. If a org was formed it could cost you more by increasing your competitions bottom line and knowledge thus costing you current and future business than it would save you in present cash. This is what scares me. If an org was formed and they went on to solicit more members with no cap it could get to be anti productive for the members with a well established biz. Seems that few ppl here look at the future of their businesses. Yes currently I am very small in terms of how I run my business, but it's by choice. This year I am setting forth to break bad and increase my contracts and business size times 5. Then I will look for no less than a 30% annual increase after that til the day I die or sell. This is my future, what's yours. If you want to expand your business to one that will provide you with a good retirement then you do not want competition. I'm guessing that most of the folks discussing this topic have been in business for a couple of years or more. What did it take for you to get where you are today, how did you struggle. Do you want to make it easier for those to follow just so they can come in and undercut your prices and/or snap up contracts that you may have been able to secure in the future? By creating a discount opportunity that "may" become available to everyone who is a licensed pressure-cleaning contractor you "are" creating an opportunity for more ppl to get into this business and succeed!

If done properly with a membership cap it could be a good thing, but it could still bite us all in the butt! Even then it will be based on everyone included being able to use the same suppliers/vendors. That in itself may be impossible. I like the equipment that I use and I like my chemicals. I prefer a local insurance company especially for my vehicles. For legal issues I have an atty and would not use anyone else cept for maybe one of the Dream Team

Here's my reply to this:
1. collection attorney - Never needed one! I have an Atty if I have a problem and he's cheaper, only charges me $20 to send a death threat out on his letterhead As many times as it takes to collect. It's 100% productive! Much cheaper than a collection Agency that basically is just an Atty that sends out a mild threat on letterhead.
2. group health insurance I have it through my wife, May be good for employees though? However like someone else said you can get pretty good deals through leasing agencys plus other perks.
3. group marketing campaign No need for it, I don't advertise, I only pitch a very unique clientelle. Besides for a group campaign you're talking MEGA Even if it had 500 members divide that up between 50 states worth of advertising. OUCH!!
4. Buying power for chemicals and equipment. So long as it's the chemicals that I/everyone uses? This may be harder to to than you think
5. educational programs ? Not to sure if I would use this but you never know.
6. Certification classes for different types of pressure washing. See #5
7. Manuals for equipment problems. There already out there if you need em
8. National account recognition. This my be nice
Do you guys have any idea how much $$$ it would take to support #3,5,6,7,&8. OMG Tons of cash!

Oh well that's just my opinion


You probably all think that I have a very grim persona of things but I really don't I've just been around. And I am definitely not saying that I am right in my thinking, I'm just saying "think before you drink!"

Cody!</FONT c>


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<FONT COLOR="orange">This Busienss is Great

Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
 

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