<FONT COLOR="e87400">Trying to Convey my view here… This is long but I just wanted to try attempt to explain why I feel the way I do, However this may better show that I am severly brain damaged and lost in my own little world.
Here go's
I'm not just trying to cover my ass here, I'm trying to cover everyone's. I am passionate about this because I love this business. Ron I hear exactly what your saying about creating customer awareness and educating contractors to do their jobs without causing damage to the customer's property & it's a beautiful notion but in reality I think it would do more harm than good My problem with this is that you are also creating an open source for information (You said that it would give ALL information to ALL members) on the business & as I have said before by doing so you give a person with absolutely zero experience the ability to compete with any of us. Now if you could vouch for the character of everyone who ever wanted to access this info prior to their getting it that would be different, but you can't. So,, the unscrupulous will enter. Now what? You will have "many" who will work for far less than the rest, thus causing a price curve. If you think this would not happen think again. Market saturation is real that's why it has a name, that's why it is a familiar term to all of us. Market Saturation, Market Saturation, Market Saturation… It happens. It is self explanatory. The market gets "Saturated" Too much,, Too many. Only so many businesses can survive. You may think that you will be able to keep your prices up because you have a great name and your customers love you but you are wrong. The guy that is cutting your price by half is doing even a better job and he's getting even a better name & eventually your prices will have to give or you'll be in the unemployment line. Yes he may go out of business because he's working to cheap but it may take years for it to happen (I know of a company in business right now that has been screwing up the Aluminum industry for 10 years, they're hanging on by a thread but they are hanging on and causing major turmoil within that industry!). In the mean time your looking for away to get the creditors off your back.
I do not want more qualified competition. I sell my services based on Supply and Demand. Currently in my area the Demand is greater than the Supply (as are most areas) for my market thus I am able to dictate my prices because I control the Supply for the Demand. Hence higher profits can be attained. Now if the Supply gets greater than the demand what happens? Prices will fall because the Demand will control the Supply (and pricing) aka Market Saturation! It's really not difficult to understand. The demand controlling the supply is an inevitable fact, but do we want to help it along. I may take 20 years for it to happen or it could take 2 years. The time it takes is based on the how quickly the Supply grows. Now your wanting to plant the seeds for Supply?
NOTE: I just landed a job last week because some moron went out and scribbled some sidewalks. I saw the mess and talked to the manager and bam I got a nice little weekly account at $125 & about 40 minutes a pop plus it got me on a new vendor list so it may help shoe me in for more accounts. So right there because some guy was an idiot (the way I want to keep em) I manage to pick up another $6500 a year which will add probably $3k to my net annual income and it was only a 2 minute sale because of Scribble Boy Powerwashing. **another note here** I sold my services for more than Scribble Boy was doing it for!!
Thanks Scribble Boy
Price clubbing, you don't want that either, you want high prices on goods and services! Man you can get into this business for $5k and make over $100 an hour right now, where else can you do that. We are all already in the biz, we should want prices on all the goods to be double to keep the riff raff out. This industry is already way to cheap to get into. All you veterans know,, it wasn't so cheap 10-15 years ago. What happened? More vendors that's what. All those old vendors watched as their "loyal" customers started to shop their prices and seek goods elsewhere. Now look at all the prices. But Competition is good right. No,, that's gotta be the worst damn saying that I have ever heard. Every time a new company starts what are they doing, they're trying to stay alive by any means necessary. Then they survive, they make it, they hire employees they train employees. Then the employees quit and start their own company and so on & so on. Hence more competition. (example = Like the guys that quit working for their boss, stole his contracts, charged 1/2 as much and were proud & gloating that they'd done it. Ecstatic over the $20 an hour that they were now making. Then they'd tell everyone else that they didn't need to charge more because they were so smart and we were all criminals. (My Point here is that there are A LOT of these ppl out there))
Professional Courtesy's
Here on the forums it is a little different. All of our competition is not here, yes some may be but not all. You say what's the difference. Well according to the grand plans I have read about this training and ed org, members would be solicited, possibly through telemarketing and/or a marketing plan. Seeking out people to educate is vastly different than the individuals seeking out the info for themselves. By doing this you are going out of your way to find people to open up new doors to. Many of the folks doing this are oblivous to the rest of the industry, now you want to show them all of it. Why. I think that I have helped several folks here on this forum and I am glad I was able to but I see this totally different than going out and trying to find all the folks in my market as saying:
" Hi. My name is Cody and I want to help you out, did you know that you can do all this other work and hey btw I'm charging this amount, and did you know it will really help you compete if you go out and get this equipment. You can get it here and here at the best price, oh also these chemicals work really great. Is there anything else I can do for you? If so just call I've been in this business fo 15years now and I'd really hate to see you have to pay your dues and learn things the slow way, I really need some competition right now I'm making way too much money way to easily please start taking away from my plate I just feel guilty & really look forward to having to work a lot harder to get business!
This may be wrong but I reall feel that folks that seek info for them selves will probaly turn out to be better business people than those that do not.
I'm not a the total prick that many think I am. I'm not running around in camo's with an Uzi blasting down my competition. I know a few of my local competitors and occasionally chat with them but only the ones that I feel are competent. The guys that I see working and I see there equipment and figure they have they're act together (which of course just because they look good doesn't mean that the run they're company right either) I'll stop and chat and we may swap a few ideas or info, but we don't go crazy swapping info either. We keep it professional and polite. I have also on occasion gotten help from a couple of them. Again though this is quit different than educating the masses. I have found that most of the guys I meet are really of the same mind set that I am when it comes to information such as this. They're pretty tight lipped! Also to help my fellow contractor; whenever I hear that one is charging to little I'll call them up and say "Hey dumbass your not charging enough" Yes I do my part to help my competitors. I want to share my information because it does feel good when you help someone but on the same hand I do have a business to think about. I think that most here would view things differently if they knew that the guy they were helping so much was just down the street with them in their crosshairs! I had posed a question recently on the Just Fleets board about setting up a stationary truckwash, and I got some great input and I appreciate it greatly. I'd be willing to bet though that many folks would not be willing to help out if they knew I was setting it up a mile away from their stationary truckwash.
Training The Customers on an Organizational Level
The attack plan of training the customers is also a possible mistake. The more you educate customers the more they know about our businesses, then once they have a grasp on the industry they will start dictating our prices. This is already happening. Look at some of the fleets and supermarket chains. I have gone to supermarkets before and they have told me how much they would pay, I laughed and walked away. They know that they will get some idiot to do it for that price because there are a lot of idiots out there. Now with a nice new org. there will be more trained idiots out there. I'm not calling anyone here an idiot I'm just saying that there are people out there that no matter how hard you try to teach them they will never raise there prices they're whole concept of gaining new customers is based around Price! They sell on price alone and nothing else. Here's a typical sales pitch for them.
Contractor: How much do you pay now to get your stuff cleaned?
Customer: $100,,
Contractor: I'll do it for $49.95.
Customer: Sold!
There's the sales pitch for so many. Fleetwash, Carwash Guys and so many others will never change no matter how hard you try to change them. They would however use such an Org. to their advantage to gain a tactical advantage.
Also here,, when you increase the customers awareness you will also increase their chances of shopping you. I definitely know for a fact that I have sold many of jobs that the customer never got another bid on. Maybe because they considered it a chore since they didn't know where to begin. If an Org became a nationally recognized entity then these customers would have been more likely to shop me. They would've been able to simply contact the org to supply leads. I don't need that! Which leads to another point. If you have an Org. that collects a commission on provided leads your pitting member against member. When a cherry contract comes up and everyone wants it something is going to happen. Training the customer could alos lead to more customers taking their cleaning operation in-house. I think that we can all agree on this one,, we don't want it!
What do you think it'll do for you
As far as forming a Org as you guys want to, what are you really wanting to accomplish? Why do it?
I was a member of the AAF (Aluminum Association of Florida) and they had a no bashing policy. It didn't work. There is a member of my area that bashes everyone else in the Org. and nothing is ever done about it. So what does this help. Also the Org. cannot really vouch for the Contractors that are within it's ranks. In the AAF there are plenty of butchers that do God awful work. I really think that some of these guys have no clue of what a level or a plum stick are. Pretty bad for a builder. But they are members so they must be qualified. The Org even maintains a campaign advertising that if you don't see their Seal then the contractor isn't qualified. Well there Seal don't mean jack! Like I said there were plenty of butchers in the Org. some who darn sure shouldn't have been Licensed contractors but they were. My point here is Why would I want the same thing here in the Pressure Cleaning Industry. The members of the PWNA are no more qualified than anyone else yet they wield there name as if it meant something. It doesn't mean a damn thing and neither will any new Org' unless strict and rigid Training is implemented like some similar to an ASE certified Mechanic & I for one definitely don't want that headache. Now you also will have the Licensed Gap I was reffering to earlier
So who is this good for & who would want it:
"Not non-Profit"
It was said before that this plan of an org. "is <u>not</u> to be Non-Profit". This makes me think that there is an underlying motivation here. If it is to be a "profit" making organization then the real motivation for doing it is not for the well being of the contractors but for the well being of the Organization & those that run it. I have read ALL the post regarding this matter & this is pretty simple to see. Now in order for an organization as such to make more money it would be in it's best interest to set forth more regulation and training requirements forcing Contractors to have to pour more money into it this Org. so it could make money. Hey it's a business right it's goal is to increase it's revenues through any means necessary. Acquiring more members and setting regulation and training would be it's majority revenue along with the kickbacks that it would receive for setting up deals with suppliers and services. In the pursuit of new members it would offer all information and resources for operating a successful Pressure Cleaning business. Never caring about things like Market Saturation, Supply & Demand, of Future Earnings Potential. It may seemingly care, but the bottom line of any such Org is it's member base. The more members it has the more earnings & political leverage it can attain, now it can implement regulation at the drop of the hat. The Contractor's best interest is not involved at this point only the Organization and it's committee is At first it may start out innocent enough but in the end it may turn around and bite many of us.
For the life of me I do not understand why anyone would want to do such a thing. Really I just don't get it. I see this plain as day. Do you guys have a hard time getting business?? If so use your time and resources educating yourselves in Marketing and Sales. There's a lot of business out there. If you spent half the time knocking on doors that you want to spend building this Org. you'd be millionaires. I have no problems finding business I have problems getting it all done. Go out and educate you potential customers not your competition. If you want to share info and save people money then Post it on up here, unless of course you're looking to make a buck on it. In that case start an Org.
And just for the record I am not scared of competition and I don't mind swimming with the sharks (I surf
) I just don't want to see my profit margin slip (nor yours, your profit margin is important to me too.) to where I have to become a volume company. I've been there it sucks. I could charge half of what I do now, but I'd have to work twice as hard to maintian my Net Income. Why would I want to do that? Believe me I can compete. Some reason you guys think that because I am against this I am in fear of losing my business. I don't fear losing my biz I fear losing my profit margin. I like it right where it is. I was a builder for years and in a horrifically cutt throat sector. I know how to play like that. I quit it because my Pressure cleaning profits began to surpass my building profits on 1/5th of the gross sales. I'm no idiot I saw this as a good thing so I dumped my building biz and began this fulltime! If I wanted to become a volume service I could easily beat the hell out of 80% of my competition and put them out of biz. But again Why. I make my money now there's no point in doing it, contracts are ample. Why thrash my market when there is no need to. This is a Great Business. Don't try to fix it, it ain't broke!
Grant it there have been a few valid points that I cannot totally disregard in favor of such an Org. But I still believe that the risk out weigh the rewards. If an Org as such was formed what would it save me vs what would it cost. Cost being actual expense of being a member / involvement & development of competitive business. It really all boils down to your future earnings potential. If you develop 50% more "qualified contractors" what will this do to my market share? Is it worth the risk? As far as I can see it is not! The only good thing may be is that if an issue were to arise that would have a dramatic negative impact on our industry we would have a larger voice to address it. But frankly we can already do this through the means that are already in place, like these forums and PWNA!
I'm not trying to be confrontational I'm just trying to protect a virgin!
Cody</FONT c>
------------------
<FONT COLOR="e87400">
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
Here go's
I'm not just trying to cover my ass here, I'm trying to cover everyone's. I am passionate about this because I love this business. Ron I hear exactly what your saying about creating customer awareness and educating contractors to do their jobs without causing damage to the customer's property & it's a beautiful notion but in reality I think it would do more harm than good My problem with this is that you are also creating an open source for information (You said that it would give ALL information to ALL members) on the business & as I have said before by doing so you give a person with absolutely zero experience the ability to compete with any of us. Now if you could vouch for the character of everyone who ever wanted to access this info prior to their getting it that would be different, but you can't. So,, the unscrupulous will enter. Now what? You will have "many" who will work for far less than the rest, thus causing a price curve. If you think this would not happen think again. Market saturation is real that's why it has a name, that's why it is a familiar term to all of us. Market Saturation, Market Saturation, Market Saturation… It happens. It is self explanatory. The market gets "Saturated" Too much,, Too many. Only so many businesses can survive. You may think that you will be able to keep your prices up because you have a great name and your customers love you but you are wrong. The guy that is cutting your price by half is doing even a better job and he's getting even a better name & eventually your prices will have to give or you'll be in the unemployment line. Yes he may go out of business because he's working to cheap but it may take years for it to happen (I know of a company in business right now that has been screwing up the Aluminum industry for 10 years, they're hanging on by a thread but they are hanging on and causing major turmoil within that industry!). In the mean time your looking for away to get the creditors off your back.
I do not want more qualified competition. I sell my services based on Supply and Demand. Currently in my area the Demand is greater than the Supply (as are most areas) for my market thus I am able to dictate my prices because I control the Supply for the Demand. Hence higher profits can be attained. Now if the Supply gets greater than the demand what happens? Prices will fall because the Demand will control the Supply (and pricing) aka Market Saturation! It's really not difficult to understand. The demand controlling the supply is an inevitable fact, but do we want to help it along. I may take 20 years for it to happen or it could take 2 years. The time it takes is based on the how quickly the Supply grows. Now your wanting to plant the seeds for Supply?
NOTE: I just landed a job last week because some moron went out and scribbled some sidewalks. I saw the mess and talked to the manager and bam I got a nice little weekly account at $125 & about 40 minutes a pop plus it got me on a new vendor list so it may help shoe me in for more accounts. So right there because some guy was an idiot (the way I want to keep em) I manage to pick up another $6500 a year which will add probably $3k to my net annual income and it was only a 2 minute sale because of Scribble Boy Powerwashing. **another note here** I sold my services for more than Scribble Boy was doing it for!!
Thanks Scribble Boy
Price clubbing, you don't want that either, you want high prices on goods and services! Man you can get into this business for $5k and make over $100 an hour right now, where else can you do that. We are all already in the biz, we should want prices on all the goods to be double to keep the riff raff out. This industry is already way to cheap to get into. All you veterans know,, it wasn't so cheap 10-15 years ago. What happened? More vendors that's what. All those old vendors watched as their "loyal" customers started to shop their prices and seek goods elsewhere. Now look at all the prices. But Competition is good right. No,, that's gotta be the worst damn saying that I have ever heard. Every time a new company starts what are they doing, they're trying to stay alive by any means necessary. Then they survive, they make it, they hire employees they train employees. Then the employees quit and start their own company and so on & so on. Hence more competition. (example = Like the guys that quit working for their boss, stole his contracts, charged 1/2 as much and were proud & gloating that they'd done it. Ecstatic over the $20 an hour that they were now making. Then they'd tell everyone else that they didn't need to charge more because they were so smart and we were all criminals. (My Point here is that there are A LOT of these ppl out there))
Professional Courtesy's
Here on the forums it is a little different. All of our competition is not here, yes some may be but not all. You say what's the difference. Well according to the grand plans I have read about this training and ed org, members would be solicited, possibly through telemarketing and/or a marketing plan. Seeking out people to educate is vastly different than the individuals seeking out the info for themselves. By doing this you are going out of your way to find people to open up new doors to. Many of the folks doing this are oblivous to the rest of the industry, now you want to show them all of it. Why. I think that I have helped several folks here on this forum and I am glad I was able to but I see this totally different than going out and trying to find all the folks in my market as saying:
" Hi. My name is Cody and I want to help you out, did you know that you can do all this other work and hey btw I'm charging this amount, and did you know it will really help you compete if you go out and get this equipment. You can get it here and here at the best price, oh also these chemicals work really great. Is there anything else I can do for you? If so just call I've been in this business fo 15years now and I'd really hate to see you have to pay your dues and learn things the slow way, I really need some competition right now I'm making way too much money way to easily please start taking away from my plate I just feel guilty & really look forward to having to work a lot harder to get business!
This may be wrong but I reall feel that folks that seek info for them selves will probaly turn out to be better business people than those that do not.
I'm not a the total prick that many think I am. I'm not running around in camo's with an Uzi blasting down my competition. I know a few of my local competitors and occasionally chat with them but only the ones that I feel are competent. The guys that I see working and I see there equipment and figure they have they're act together (which of course just because they look good doesn't mean that the run they're company right either) I'll stop and chat and we may swap a few ideas or info, but we don't go crazy swapping info either. We keep it professional and polite. I have also on occasion gotten help from a couple of them. Again though this is quit different than educating the masses. I have found that most of the guys I meet are really of the same mind set that I am when it comes to information such as this. They're pretty tight lipped! Also to help my fellow contractor; whenever I hear that one is charging to little I'll call them up and say "Hey dumbass your not charging enough" Yes I do my part to help my competitors. I want to share my information because it does feel good when you help someone but on the same hand I do have a business to think about. I think that most here would view things differently if they knew that the guy they were helping so much was just down the street with them in their crosshairs! I had posed a question recently on the Just Fleets board about setting up a stationary truckwash, and I got some great input and I appreciate it greatly. I'd be willing to bet though that many folks would not be willing to help out if they knew I was setting it up a mile away from their stationary truckwash.
Training The Customers on an Organizational Level
The attack plan of training the customers is also a possible mistake. The more you educate customers the more they know about our businesses, then once they have a grasp on the industry they will start dictating our prices. This is already happening. Look at some of the fleets and supermarket chains. I have gone to supermarkets before and they have told me how much they would pay, I laughed and walked away. They know that they will get some idiot to do it for that price because there are a lot of idiots out there. Now with a nice new org. there will be more trained idiots out there. I'm not calling anyone here an idiot I'm just saying that there are people out there that no matter how hard you try to teach them they will never raise there prices they're whole concept of gaining new customers is based around Price! They sell on price alone and nothing else. Here's a typical sales pitch for them.
Contractor: How much do you pay now to get your stuff cleaned?
Customer: $100,,
Contractor: I'll do it for $49.95.
Customer: Sold!
There's the sales pitch for so many. Fleetwash, Carwash Guys and so many others will never change no matter how hard you try to change them. They would however use such an Org. to their advantage to gain a tactical advantage.
Also here,, when you increase the customers awareness you will also increase their chances of shopping you. I definitely know for a fact that I have sold many of jobs that the customer never got another bid on. Maybe because they considered it a chore since they didn't know where to begin. If an Org became a nationally recognized entity then these customers would have been more likely to shop me. They would've been able to simply contact the org to supply leads. I don't need that! Which leads to another point. If you have an Org. that collects a commission on provided leads your pitting member against member. When a cherry contract comes up and everyone wants it something is going to happen. Training the customer could alos lead to more customers taking their cleaning operation in-house. I think that we can all agree on this one,, we don't want it!
What do you think it'll do for you
As far as forming a Org as you guys want to, what are you really wanting to accomplish? Why do it?
- Are you trying to get more sales. Why not just work on your own personal Marketing & Sales strategy?
- Are you trying to get customers to come to you? Plenty of customers are out there everywhere you look Pressure cleaning is needed. EVERYWHERE, I feel it would be more difficult to get them to come to me than it is for me to go to them!
- Are you trying to get customers to pay more? They pay plenty now you just have to ask for it! Read my post in the Tips section "Make More $$$. That post is worth a ton of money. Learn to Sell your service. To many companies just lope around asking customers if they want their services and don't ever really sell their services. This happens is large and small companies. You must learn to Market you service so as to create a since of urgency to the customer, make them feel that if you leave without a contract you'll never be back and there business will crumble and fire will engulf the earth.
- Are you trying to get rid of unqualified competition. This will only qualify more competition thus strengthening more companies to compete with you. If you set regulation and training requirements this will only furtherr the gap between the "Legal" & No Legal contractors. Thus enabling the UnLic. To sell for considerable less and further softening the price structure
- Are you trying to get better prices on goods? If you are getting what you should for your services then goods are cheap right now. How much do you expect to save 10% 15% Ok,, If your spending $10k a year on these goods then your only saving $1,500 a year. So what! I can make that on 1 contract! The flip side is if more qualified contractors are around I could Lose that one contract in 1 minute.
- Are you trying to get better prices on professional services, ie; Legal, Insurance See above[/b]
I was a member of the AAF (Aluminum Association of Florida) and they had a no bashing policy. It didn't work. There is a member of my area that bashes everyone else in the Org. and nothing is ever done about it. So what does this help. Also the Org. cannot really vouch for the Contractors that are within it's ranks. In the AAF there are plenty of butchers that do God awful work. I really think that some of these guys have no clue of what a level or a plum stick are. Pretty bad for a builder. But they are members so they must be qualified. The Org even maintains a campaign advertising that if you don't see their Seal then the contractor isn't qualified. Well there Seal don't mean jack! Like I said there were plenty of butchers in the Org. some who darn sure shouldn't have been Licensed contractors but they were. My point here is Why would I want the same thing here in the Pressure Cleaning Industry. The members of the PWNA are no more qualified than anyone else yet they wield there name as if it meant something. It doesn't mean a damn thing and neither will any new Org' unless strict and rigid Training is implemented like some similar to an ASE certified Mechanic & I for one definitely don't want that headache. Now you also will have the Licensed Gap I was reffering to earlier
So who is this good for & who would want it:
- Newbies would love it because they could advance quicker within the industry, but they really don't want it. Those with determination can get all the information the hard way and build a better business by stifling out the competition. That's right Newbies shouldn't want competition either.
- Contractors that want it as a sales tool. Well no offense here but these may be the very people that we don't want in the business. If they are wanting to rely on an Org. to build their businesses then they are not doing it themselves. They are looking for an easy way to establish accounts and recognition rather than going out and beating the street and making it happen. They have a hobby not a business!
- It will be damn good for the folks running it if it ever gained national recognition. The Board members could possibly make a fortune. Plus gain an unprecedented amount of power over the industry.
"Not non-Profit"
It was said before that this plan of an org. "is <u>not</u> to be Non-Profit". This makes me think that there is an underlying motivation here. If it is to be a "profit" making organization then the real motivation for doing it is not for the well being of the contractors but for the well being of the Organization & those that run it. I have read ALL the post regarding this matter & this is pretty simple to see. Now in order for an organization as such to make more money it would be in it's best interest to set forth more regulation and training requirements forcing Contractors to have to pour more money into it this Org. so it could make money. Hey it's a business right it's goal is to increase it's revenues through any means necessary. Acquiring more members and setting regulation and training would be it's majority revenue along with the kickbacks that it would receive for setting up deals with suppliers and services. In the pursuit of new members it would offer all information and resources for operating a successful Pressure Cleaning business. Never caring about things like Market Saturation, Supply & Demand, of Future Earnings Potential. It may seemingly care, but the bottom line of any such Org is it's member base. The more members it has the more earnings & political leverage it can attain, now it can implement regulation at the drop of the hat. The Contractor's best interest is not involved at this point only the Organization and it's committee is At first it may start out innocent enough but in the end it may turn around and bite many of us.
For the life of me I do not understand why anyone would want to do such a thing. Really I just don't get it. I see this plain as day. Do you guys have a hard time getting business?? If so use your time and resources educating yourselves in Marketing and Sales. There's a lot of business out there. If you spent half the time knocking on doors that you want to spend building this Org. you'd be millionaires. I have no problems finding business I have problems getting it all done. Go out and educate you potential customers not your competition. If you want to share info and save people money then Post it on up here, unless of course you're looking to make a buck on it. In that case start an Org.
And just for the record I am not scared of competition and I don't mind swimming with the sharks (I surf
Grant it there have been a few valid points that I cannot totally disregard in favor of such an Org. But I still believe that the risk out weigh the rewards. If an Org as such was formed what would it save me vs what would it cost. Cost being actual expense of being a member / involvement & development of competitive business. It really all boils down to your future earnings potential. If you develop 50% more "qualified contractors" what will this do to my market share? Is it worth the risk? As far as I can see it is not! The only good thing may be is that if an issue were to arise that would have a dramatic negative impact on our industry we would have a larger voice to address it. But frankly we can already do this through the means that are already in place, like these forums and PWNA!
I'm not trying to be confrontational I'm just trying to protect a virgin!
Cody</FONT c>
------------------
<FONT COLOR="e87400">
Hydro-Emulsification Surface Preparation Specialist </FONT c>
